Torricelli on Super Delegates
By Robert TorricelliThe rules that govern the Democratic Party's Presidential Delegate selection process are the result of thirty years of conflict. National conventions have been divided and reform commissions have fought into many long nights. There's really only one major reform in recent decades that represented a consensus: everybody recognized the need for the Super Delegates.
More than 20 years after their creation, Super Delegates have finally entered the center stage. Without their support neither Barrack Obama nor Hillary Clinton could get nominated. The as usual ill-informed media and the idiot pundits on cable television have reacted with horror. The process, they contend, has been hijacked and some abomination has manipulated the process and denied it legitimacy. Nothing could be further from the truth. When the 1980 election ended the Democratic Party was in a shambles. President Carter had lost in a landslide. Successive insurgencies in 1968 and 1972 left deep ideological scars on the Party. Increasingly the Congressional Leadership was distancing itself from the Party activists that dominated the Presidential nominating process. The national political conventions were opportunities to write platforms that everyone ignored and produced streets brawls disguised as a nominating process on national television. The result was the Hunt Commission. The Hunt Commission represented the only consensus in the Democratic Party. Everybody believed that the process was broken. Over twenty years the nominating conventions had evolved into something that no one ever planned. A few scattered primaries expanded into a patch work of state caucuses and primaries. The mixture of a few elected delegates and large number of uncommitted (favorite son) delegations was replaced by delegates bound to individual candidates. A combination of winner-take-all and proportionally divided delegations was replaced by exclusively proportional delegations. The Commission met in the ballroom of the Mayflower Hotel in Washington D.C. McGovern and McCarthy veterans huddled in their corners. A few of the State Chairs came prepared with lengthy prescriptions and over everybody's shoulder peered Walter Mondale (I was his representative) and Ted Kennedy. They were the likely contenders in 1984 and their interests and those of previous insurgencies and Party leaders would frame the recommendation that became the current delegate selection rules. The most surprising thing was how many things these disparate interests agreed upon. The most important was to get Members of Congress back in the process. First, unless Congressional leaders participated in the process, they would feel no accountability to the platform and no responsibility for the nominee. To choose a candidate without Members of Congress and Governors participating was bad politics and bad government. Second, proportional representation was the right thing to do. Unless delegates were allocated by the actual vote, minorities would never be properly represented. The problem was that proportionately dividing every contest might result in no candidate gaining a majority. In an evenly divided election or a multi- candidate field, it was entirely likely that no one would get enough delegates. The result would be the kind of brokered convention that Americans disdain. Each of these problems had a common prescription. The Super Delegates were born. Members of Congress and other Party establishment types would automatically be delegates. Their participation would bridge the divide that the antiwar insurgency campaigns had created between activists and leaders. Elected officials would feel accountable to the nominee and the Party platform. And, finally, the Super Delegates would provide the judgment and experience to break a deadlock if no one prevailed in the primaries. It took 28 years but the scenarios that we envisioned during those long debates in the Hunt Commission have finally occurred. The Democratic primaries are unlikely to produce a clear victor. The good news is that hundreds of elected officials will be in the convention to help choose a winner. Then, when the choice is made, they'll feel accountable for the nominee's success in the election and in governing.
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Ridiculous
I have been bothered recently about the system in general (caucuses, which are ridiculous; open primaries; etc.); but super-delegates are one of the more troubling concepts. This article not only did nothing to sell me on the idea, it drove me further to my conclusion. This article is directed at Congress to tell them why the system is good because it allows them to correct the bothersome “will of the people”. The primaries aren’t a spur-of –the-moment whim, but a long process where we take all into account and select our favorite candidate (even if it we didn’t, so what; it’s our choice). That the Hunt Commission was in agreement is a silly suporting fact, as it was a self-serving decision.
If anyone were thinking of trying to change the super-delegate system, I would save this article and use it in support of changing it.
Question
So these super delagates essentially get to vote twice for the nominee? Is this correct? Once in their regular primary election like the rest of us stiffs ..then they get to vote as Super delagates?
Please advise.
The Torch illuminates us
So when the "ill-informed media and the idiot pundits" report that the superdelegates have annointed Hillary Clinton as the Democratic nominee despite her not getting a majority of primary election votes and pledged delegates, we should all relax about it, having been illuminated by the Torch?
Nice try, but I always thought that subverting the will of the people was not what Democracy was all about. Guess I was wrong all these years.
superdelegates
I cannot in any way support a super delegate system. It is fundamentally flawed. However, that said. What if Hillary were to have lost in pledged delegate total, but won in the popular vote? That is cause for discussion, the answer isnt superdels. Perhaps we should do away with cacuses (which disenfranchise the elderly, single parents, and swing shift workers), have winner take all primaries and abolish this antiquated rules that give IA, NH, SC, and NV head starts. Furthermore, no one except regisiterd Democrats (or registered Republicans) should be allowed to vote in the primary. If you havnt registered as a Dem (even if you are independant or unaffliated) or as a Republican you should not be able to vote in an intraparty election.
Torricelli is correct.
This is a party process.
The Democratic National Committee has an obligation to include, not exclude the leadership (ie, elected officials and party leaders) to have a say in who is the nominee as painful as that may sound to the politically ignorant and naive.
In 1944 the Democratic Party realized they had a practicing socialist in Henry Wallace as Vice-president with FDR terminally ill. The party, wisely removed this appeaser of Stalin from the ticket and replaced him with a gy by the name of Harry Shipp Truman.
Was that a bad idea?
In 1968 the primaries & delegates wanted to nominate Eugene McCarthy. The party stepped in and nominated Hubert Humphrey.
Was that not the right decision?
The notion of winning is what the party will consider in Denver. Who can win the general election must be in the end the paramount reason for nomination.
This is the function of the super delegate. That's why we have them.
They makeup less than 25% of all the delegates in attendance. It's time for the grown-ups to take hold of a process that could wind-up out-of-control and that might mean going to the bench and drafting a candidate on the second ballot when all the delegates will in fact be uncommitted.
?
Demsanddonts,
Why have the people vote at all?
People do vote.
In the primaries and the caucuses as well. The party selection process is more democratic than the general election where the person with the most votes can lose (Gore).
The point is that the Democratic Party has a very democratic selection process. To suggest super delegates shouldn't have a final say in this scenario where no candidate can reach the majic number on the first ballot is silly.
If it goes to a second ballot, you'll have a democratic free-for-all on television for three days six weeks before the general election. That needs to be avoided.
In the end, picking the candidate who can win needs to be the ultimate objective.
Ummm
Demsanddonts,
I'm not sure if you realize this but the only reason neither candidate can reach the magic number is the superdelegates themselves.
So the argument that the supers are needed to prevent a floor fight is flat wrong.
What?
What is your point?
I'm discussing the very relevance of the super delegate. I'm well aware neither candidate can win with just pledged delegates.
Please.
Who let the Torch out of his reservation?
I agree with enoch_needles. After all it is a democratic process that Democrats are supposed to support. For Torch, however, it is establishment superdelegates, who should elect the candidate. The question is: why bother with the primary process at all? Just let loose all these superdelegates for a couple of hours in a beer hall and that's it folks.
No, seriously
why is this disgraced formed Senator taken seriously at this site?
Unless you are looking for advice on how to be a corrupt official, I'm thinking there are hundreds of politicos who have more credibilty.
I did think it was (unintentionally) funny that just under the "Toricelli on Superdelegates" headline is this one: "Keeping 'em Honest"
Hey Demsanddonts,
Eugene McCarthy? Hubert Humphrey? Say, wasn't that during the 1968 election?
Wasn't there like a super-huge riot at that party or something?
God forbid it happens, but we're, sad to say, a much, a much angrier bunch of citizens now than the "summer of love" era. There's already going to be mass protests JUST BECAUSE at the convention. I just hope the Democrats don't give the people another reason to get all riled up. If the candidate who doesn't have the most popular votes gets the nomination, if it appears that someone is "stealing" the election (and make no mistake, that's exactly how it will be perceived) the 1968 "Chicago Eight" will be nothing compared to the 2008 "Denver 8000", my prediction....I hope it doesn't come true....
Super late on Super delegates according to Coleridge
It is an ancient Mariner,
And he stoppeth one of three.
"By thy long grey beard and glittering eye,
Now wherefore stopp'st thou me?
"The Bridegroom's doors are opened wide,
And I am next of kin;
The guests are met, the feast is set:
May'st hear the merry din."
Its twenty years late to complain about the process or maybe just two on the current rules.
If action was required why wasn't it proposed during the adoption process for rules for the 2008 convention?
It is was it is!
The guests are met and the feast is set.
Play ball!
The Rationale Belies the Democratic Ideal
Snarky,
Now, now! You've been attempting to employ reason! I think we all know that does not work with "progressive Democrats." Pointing out to them that the very name of their political party is belied by the process they have adopted to select their nominee for the Presidency, is only going to make them more upset and emotional. And it will only trigger more illogical responses like the latest tautological mini-rant from Demsanddonts.
Now, I must confess that I have been tempted to ask these basic questions:
My Dear Democrats: Your party has clearly demonstrated an inability to select a nominee for the Presidency without resort to completely anti-democratic means, including disenfranchising millions of voters in Michigan and Florida, and turning to "super-delegates" -- whose various motivations are, to say the least, less than pure -- to make that selection for you. Why, then, should "We the People" -- in whom all political power resides according to our fundamental charter -- give any consideration to your preferred candidate, who will be presented to us fresh from the backroom deal? Moreover, you have proved that you cannot even establish OR run a process to select a candidate in an appropriately democratic manner. The fact is, you completely screwed up a matter over which you had complete control! And, you're now grasping for ways to change the rules that you established, because you can't win, you can't break even, and you can't get out of the game. Why should we ever choose you to run the nation?
Well, I'm not going to ask them those questions. In the first place, they do not have any answers, at least not ones that makes any sense. I'm going to sit back and enjoy the entertainment. But when "The Neverending Story" finally wraps up, it seems to me that they will have some real explaining to do to the American people!
I do wish, though, that they would lay off the racist rhetoric and appeal. For Hillary Clinton and her surrogates to deliberately employ such a disgusting appeal is reprehensible. In that regard, TheRagingCentrist was quite right. In 1968, the fight was over Viet-Nam, and how to get out of a war they started. But this fight, and the strategy being employed by Hillary Clinton's campaign -- has now become an appeal to the very basest of motivations, and it could trigger a realignment of their party. It is an attempt to divide the party along racial lines, and is clearly borne of her unquenchable lust for power.
Hillary Clinton is behind on total votes cast, number of contests won, and regular delegates won. And yet, she says that Barack Obama should be her Vice-Presidential candidate!
Well, no Democrat will ask the following rhetorical question, but I will.
Please explain why we should not all see that Clinton camp arrogance as the modern political version of, "Go to the back of the bus?"
by Trochilus
Let me add one more thing....
First of all, Trochilus: Well put.
The other angle here that NOBODY ANYWHERE is talking about.......by letting Florida and/or Michigan re-vote, what does this say to any of the other 48 Democratic parties for 2012? This gives them pretty much a free-pass to move up their primary/caucus dates to just about any time they please. No consequences, right?
That is all........
Why even Torricelli is on this web site?
It is an excellent question, why Torch is allowed on this web site? It is not censorship, please be serious. However, corrupt political officials belong in reservations not on open political blogs. Maybe Wally Edge could answer this question?
I would hate to see Client #9 advising us on how to deal with certain Jon in NJ.
Is it the best way?
I agree that for the party to function properly, elected leaders need to have input on the nomination process. Too often recently, we've seen cases where the parties themselves have been defined by their candidates, rather than the other way around. Still, we have to ask ourselves is using superdelegates to determine the nomination the best way to give the party input?
This is an age of mass democritization, people have more control from everything from their politicians, to their investment portfolios, to their religions. We don't even allow elected officials to make laws anymore, instead we submit them through ballot initiatives. When the superdelegates were created, the primary process was still relatively new. Today, however, people are used to the primaries being the determining factor in the nomination race. I'm afraid that any attempt to deviate from that standard will create quite a severe backlash.
Aren't there better ways for the party to extert its influence? Could the party host pre-primary season debates where the leaders themselves would have a shot at defining their candidates, rather than allowing Tim Russert to do it? Why can't we change campaign finance rules to allow parties to provide funds to candidates that have the support of the insiders? How about taking the selection of running mate totally out of the hands of the candidate, and let the existing superdelegates determine that?
I've been using a Google spreadsheet to keep track of how the superdelegates have pledged, compared to the popular vote in their state or Congressional District. So far, 47.7% of superdelegates from areas won by Senator Clinton have pledged to support her, compared with only 39.9% for Senator Obama. I will update the spreadsheet regularly as pledge data and election results at Gawk Squawk.
Torch is wasting Oxygen....
The current Democratic Process is a perfect representation of the Democrat's Philosophy.
1) there are no winners - hold a state election and everyone wins! We wouldn't want someone's feelings to be hurt if they didn't actually win the election by getting the most votes. Everyone wins some delegates!
2) the voters are not smart enough - Let's have the party insider's to vote the party line even if the voters have spoken. It's the SuperDels wants that count!
3) the rules can be changed at any time - So FL & MI went against the wishes of the Party. And the Party slapped their hand.......well maybe......let's change the rules after the fact and have a do-over!
With Democrats is about feelings.....not results.
Sorry Bob.....drive on!
Super Delegates Turn People Away From the Process
To me it is disheartening that the Democratic Party uses the superdelegate system. The fact that Barack Obama, who has a majority of pledged votes, and a majority of state primaries won, could lose to Hillary Clinton, simply because the party elite favor her, is disgusting. The people vote one way, and the so called superdelegates vote another. The fact that in the end, many of our votes don't seem to matter further distances me from the process. Super delegates aren't about settling disputes, they are about the elite such as Mr. Torricelli wanting to make sure that they can keep their influence on what happens to the nomination.
Please follow Christie's lead
Perhaps in a spirit of bipartisanship The Torch could follow former Governor Whitman's lead and post his final post. Who needs to hear from a disgraced former pol how things should be.
The Co-opting of the Executive Branch by the Dem Leaders?
The concept has been alluded to by others, but has yet to be said directly. If the Torch's suggestions are to become a reality, the Executive Branch will be co-opted by the super-delegates. For me, such a prospect is dangerous because it is contrary to the Democratic party's own democratic instincts.
Although we live in a Republic, it is generally held that our primary processes should be democratic in nature (i.e. picked by a majority of the people in each state). An appointing of the Democratic Party's nominee by super-delegates violates our nation's traditional notions of electoral democracy because it negates the results of the prior primaries and caucuses through which "the people" voted.
The Torch's logic also fails in separation of powers terms. The co-opting, or rather appointing, of the Democratic nominee by the super-delegates creates the prospect for a Federal government that exists in two branches instead of three (i.e. Executive plus Legislative, and Judiciary). I sincerely doubt that the Founders of this nation envisioned a form of government where only the leaders of each party got to choose their Executive representive. Instead, the Founders, in forming a nominee electing system, would have placed the power with the people of the States because to to do otherwise would dangerously concentrate power in a few individuals.
Leave Please
When is this Slime Done as a Contributor? He is an embarassment to my party.
A Good Perspective
The Democrat's convention is not undemocratic just because there are super-delegates. In the U.S. their is a belief that a winner take all or popular vote is the ONLY form of democracy. However if you look towards our democratic allies all over the world, you will see that there are many different types of voting systems all slightly varied to make things more democratic than they otherwise would be with a winner take all/popular vote.
This being said let us take a look at the primaries and conventions. What Torch is saying is absolutely correct. We need our congressional leaders to be connected to and responsible and accountable to each other, the voters, and to whomever is elected president. Then we also need a system where we cannot be hopelessly deadlocked. The proportional representation among the states is needed to ensure that a minority in any set parameters of a population will have their votes be counted equally. Then we face the issue that if we had more than two candidates, there could be a deadlock. There can be a deadlock even with two, let us not forget jefferson and burr! 37 times there was a vote for president, and that was not even in the primaries. Ultimately the federalists were the ones that threw the presidency to jefferson. How would anybody like it if their will was subject to the decisions of a different party?!
The superdelegates are for the most part very respectable elected officials that we can trust to make a decision of their is a deadlock. If Hill wins the popular vote and Obama wins pledge delegates, or vice versa, who should win? We can trust our elected officials to act in our best interests in such a case, as is why we elected them in the first place!
I know at first glance the system seems flawed. But under closer inspection the system is one that works well and is democratic.
But Still Anti-Democratic By Definition
At least a few of aaronc70's comments seem very curious indeed.
He says:
"The Democrat's convention is not undemocratic just because there are super-delegates. In the U.S. their is a belief that a winner take all or popular vote is the ONLY form of democracy. However if you look towards our democratic allies all over the world, you will see that there are many different types of voting systems all slightly varied to make things more democratic than they otherwise would be with a winner take all/popular vote."
In the first place, I would immediately note the all-too-frequent modern Democrat tendency to look with a curious level of attraction to foreigners for the lead on what is appropriate for "our" system of governance. Actually, I should specify YOUR system. You democrats -- as carefully detailed by Bob Torricelli, invented this system all on your own!
Secondly, to me the statement quoted (above) simply makes no sense at all. One earlier point (made earlier on this thread), was that by definition, having appointed "superdelegates," each with voting power heavily overweighing that of democratically selected delegates, is simply anti-democratic. That is a fact, and is unrefuted.
Now, one can have differing judgments about the relative merits of having or not having such a system. But you can't claim that the system is somehow more democratic because you have given huge power to party hacks who are potentially subject to all kinds of untoward influences, as they exercise the whip hand in selecting your standard-bearer. In fact, you may recall that you already had one clown from some state out west (CA?) publicly saying, "show me the money!" Pray tell, what was that?
It also seems to me that for a political party called the Democrat Party to incorporate significant non-democratic means into it's process to select it's Presidential candidate, is quite noteworthy. It would not have come up without a highly competitive race, but the lights are surely on now, aren't they?
And, the national Democrat Party's "process" earlier this year of completely disenfranchising the voters of both Florida and Michigan, was blatantly anti-democratic as well. Florida . . . of all states!! On that point, Hillary is NOW correct, but she certainly didn't have "clean hands" on that issue from the beginning -- back when she agreed to the process.
The upcoming rules committee meeting to "resolve" that problem should be interesting, no? Tell us . . . will there be an interim fight over control of the party, with Barack sending in his team?
In addition to the fact that the 1800 Jefferson/Burr race was a general election, not a primary, and that it spurred a subsequent constitutional change in the manner of selecting the President (12th Amendment), I would say that that discussion was utterly inapt.
Finally, let's not pretend that this is really about representation. It is about a naked grab for power, and will be fought out on the basis of who can likely win -- not the niceties of proper democratic representation.
by Trochilus
Thank you bruder. Great
Thank you bruder. Great works. Youtube video seyret izlesene and izle seyret sicak. Thank you.
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Torricelli is not the right
Torricelli is not the right man to say all these. He has got some negative records (corruption) and I believe we can find a lot of politicians who are better than him.
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عقارات السعودية - عقارات الرياض - عقارات الخرج - عقارات مكة المكرمة - عقارات جدة - عقارات الطائف - عقارات المدينة المنورة - عقارات ينبع - عقارات الدمام - عقارات الخبر - عقارات الأحساء - عقارات القصيم - عقارات عسير - عقارات حائل - عقارات تبوك - عقارات الباحة - عقارات الحدود الشمالية - عقارات الجوف - عقارات جازان - عقارات نجران - عقارات مصر - عقارات القاهرة - عقارات الجيزة - عقارات حلوان - عقارات 6 اكتوبر - عقارات الاسكندرية - عقارات الساحل الشمالي - عقارات البحيرة - عقارات السويس - عقارات الاسماعلية - عقارات بورسعيد - عقارات البحر الاحمر - عقارات مطروح - عقارات جنوب سيناء - عقارات شمال سيناء - عقارات دمياط - عقارات الدقهلية - عقارات كفر الشيخ - عقارات الشرقية - عقارات الغربية - عقارات القليوبية - عقارات المنوفبة - عقارات الفيوم - عقارات قنا - عقارات المنيا - عقارات اسيوط - عقارات بني سويف - عقارات سوهاج - عقارات الوادي الجديد - عقارات الأقصر - عقارات اسوان - عقارات الامارات - عقارات ابوظبي - عقارات العين - عقارات دبي - عقارات جبل علي - عقارات الشارقة - عقارات رأس الخيمة - عقارات عجمان - عقارات أم القيوين - عقارات الفجيرة - الوطن العربي - عقارات الكويت - عقارات عمان - عقارات قطر - عقارات البحرين - عقارات الاردن - عقارات لبنان - عقارات المغرب - عقارات السودان - عقارات سوريا - وظائف - وظائف في السعودية - وظائف في الامارات - وظائف في مصر - وظائف في الكويت - وظائف في عمان - وظائف في قطر - وظائف في البحرين - وظائف في الاردن - وظائف في لبنان - وظائف في المغرب - وظائف في السودان - وظائف في سوريا - خدمات - العروض الجديدة - الرعاية و الإعلان - الدعم الفني - العقارات العام - شراء شقق - شراء شقة - شقق بالتقسيط - شقة بالتقسيط - شقق تمليك - شقة تمليك - شقق سكنية - شقة سكنية - شقق فندقية - شقة فندقية - شقق للايجار - شقة للايجار - شقق للبيع - شقة للبيع - شقق مفروشة - شقة مفروشة - غير مصنف - مطلوب شقق - مطلوب شقة
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شات
شات سعودي شات سعودي | دردشة سعودية دردشة سعودية | شات كويتي شات كويتي | دردشة كويتية دردشة كويتية | شات الحب شات الحب | شات دلع شات دلع | شات الرياض شات الرياض
سعودي سعودي | سعودية سعودية | كويتي كويتي | كويتية كويتية | الحب الحب | دلع دلع | الرياض الرياض
الخليج الخليج | دردشة الخليج دردشة الخليج | شات الخليج شات الخليج
موقع الخليج موقع الخليج | دردشة دردشة | شات شات
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موقع العاب العاب بنات العاب فلاش العاب اكشن العاب تلبيس باربي العاب للبنات فقط العاب تلبيس العاب ترتيب الغرف غرف العاب تلبيس بنات العاب مسلية مسليه العاب طبخ العاب سيارات تلبيس بنات تلبيس باربي العاب بنات فقط العاب اطفال العاب بنات جديدة العاب ذكاء باربي العاب تلوين العاب ديكور العاب باربي صور بنات - صوربنات لعبة سونيك صور مضحكه صور اطفال صور سيارات صور حب العاب مكياج وتلبيس العاب ديكور العاب العاب شمس برامج نوكيا العاب فلاش منتدى منتديات فساتين صور ازياء العاب اطفال العاب بنات معاني الاسماء صور اطفال خلفيات اناشيد اسلامية صور غريبه غريبة مقاطع بلوتوث العاب جوال للجوال الجوال ثيمات جوال الجوال للجوال العاب طبخ للبنات فقط العاب للطبخ فقط العاب طبخ للبنات العاب الطبخ للبنات تنزيل العاب العاب للتحميل لتحميل العا ب الطبخ طبخ العاب فلاش للبنات فقط العاب قتال
شبكة صور العاب لعب العاب مغامرات بلوتوث ثيمات العاب اكشن العاب الاطفال عطورات العاب بنات العاب مسليه مسلية للبنات العاب اكشن العاب مغامرات العاب بنات قص الشعر العاب جميلة العاب حلوة حلوه العاب تلبيس جديدة جديده عطور صور للمسنجر صور رعب مرعبه مرعبة صور متحركه العاب اكشن باربي صور سيارات لعب العاب العاب فلاش العاب قص الشعر العاب الطبخ العاب مكياج العاب طبخ جديدة العاب باربي جديدة الجديدة صور مضحكه مضحكة صور رومانسية رومانسيه العاب اطفال للاطفال موقع و شبكة قوافي العاب الورق ورق العاب الغاز الالغاز العاب تلبيس فقط صور انمي بنات صور انمي انيمي صور صور عشق صور كرتون صور حيوانات صور زهور اجمل الصور صور بنات صغار صور فساتين زفاف صور فساتين سهرة صور قلوب صور غيوم توم وجيري للفتيات فقط لعبة ماريو لعبة سوبرماريو لعبة سوبر ماريو العاب صغار تحميل العاب العاب للتنزيل العاب لتنزيل لعبة بات مان لعبة باكمان لعبة باك مان
العاب الصور صور العاب تركيز التركيز صور للماسنجر مجوهرات تسريحات صور كرتون العاب قص شعر العاب الطبخ الجديدة العاب جديدة صدام-صور صدام-صور صدام حسين صدام حسين العاب ذكاء للكبار العاب اطفال صغار العاب كرتون كرتونية العاب كبار للكبار فقط العاب طيور الجنة العاب ذكاء للاطفال العاب سهلة سهله للاطفال لعبة توم وجيري لعبة تلوين توم وجيري لعب فلاش العاب الذكاء للكبار احلى العاب اطفال للاطفال العاب الغاز للكبار فقط العاب للكبار العاب الكبار العاب سيارات العاب مضحكة مضحكه العاب مسلية ومسليه العاب قتال قتالية العاب سهلة سهله العاب رماية رمايه العاب الرماية الرمايه العاب الذكاء ذكاء العاب تعليميه تعليمية العاب بنات للبنات فقط صور اطفال مضحكة صور اطفال اجانب ماسنجر مسنجر اشكال صوتية للماسنجر للفتيات فقط للبنات فقط للاولاد فقط للنساء فقط العاب بنات تلبيس العاب تلبيس الجاسوسات العاب الجاسوسات العاب باربي طبخ العاب ديزني طبخ العاب اكشن مثيرة العاب قتالية حربية العاب قتال اكشن العاب اكشن g9g العاب اكشن رعب العاب للكبار اكشن العب العاب اكشن تحميل العاب اكشن جديدة العاب حربية اكشن العاب طبخ للبنات جديدة لعبة طبخ جديدة لعبة اكشن جديدة جميلة العاب اكشن للكبار
العاب
طبخ العاب بنات
العاب جديده جديدة
العاب فلاش
العاب فلاش جديدة جديده
العاب بنات
العاب بنات جديدة جديده
العاب بنات للبنات فقط
العاب فلاش بنات
العاب تلبيس
العاب تلبيس بنات للبنات البنات
تلبيس
تلبيس بنات
العاب تلبيس بنات جديدة جديده
العاب فلاش تلبيس بنات
العاب تلبيس باربي
تلبيس باربي
تلبيس باربي جديد
تلبيس العاب باربي
العاب تلبيس باربي جديدة جديده
العاب فلاش تلبيس باربي
باربي
العاب باربي
العاب باربي جديد
العاب باربي جديدة الجديدة
العاب طبخ الطبخ
العاب الطبخ طبخ بنات للبنات
العاب للبنات باربي
العاب طبخ الطبخ جديدة الجديدة
العاب للطبخ
طبخ
بنات
فلاش
العاب تلبيس بنات فلاش
العاب تلبيس باربي فلاش
العاب فلاش طبخ
العاب طبخ تلبيس
العاب بنات طبخ تلبيس
العاب بنات فقط باربي تلبيس
العاب باربي طبخ للبنات فقط
العاب طبخ باربي
تلبيس بنات باربي
العاب تلبيس للبنات باربي
العاب طبخ جديدة جديده للبنات
العاب الطبخ طبخ للبنات فقط جديدة جديده
werter
مون لايت/
منتديات مون لايت
/
دليل ضوء القمر
/
دردشة مون لايت , دردشه , شات
/توبيكات ملونه
بروكسي , بروكسيات , تحميل برنامج فتح المواقع المحجوبة
/حكم وامثال,امثال وحكم
/ماسنجر , مون لايت , الماسنجر , مسن
اكواد الالوان,اكواد الوان
/
القران الكريم, قران كريم
/
دليل مواقع
/
شات صوتي
شات كتابي
/
غرائب وعجائب , مون لايت , غرائب وعجايب
/
منتدى الترحيب والتهاني
دردشة
/
شات
/
منتديات
/
منتدى
/
الأرشيف
/
المنتدى العام
/
المنتدى الاسلامي
المنتدى السياسي
/
اللغة الانجليزية English Language
/
منتدى السياحه والسفر
/
حقائق وغرائب - جرائم وأحداث
الأفلام - تحميل افلام - مشاهدة افلام
/
اخبار الرياضه و السيارات
/
الفن والفنانين
/
ستار اكاديمي Star Academy
الشعر النبطي والفصيح
/
القصص والروايات والخيال
/
عالم المرأة ( حواء ) /
الطبخ والأكلات العالميه والعربيه
العياده الطبيه والنفسيه والاجتماعيه
/
عالم الطفل والتربيه الأسريه
/
الديكور والاثاث المنزلي
الشباب العربي ( آدم )
/
البرامج والكمبيوتر والانترنت
/
المسجات والرسائل SMS " MMS
برامج الماسنجر Messenger Programs
/
منتدى تصاميم وجرافكس /
الجوال
/
بلوتوث والافلام
الستلايت والفضائيات
/
الفوتوشوب
/
دروس فوتوشوب
/
دروس فلاش
دروس Cinema 4D
النكت ( نكت )
/
الصور والكاريكاتير
/
صور حيوانات وطيور
/
منتدى مقاطع YouTube - يوتيوب
/
صور السيارات
دردشه
منتديات
شات كتابي
شات صوتي
مون لايت
شات
منتدى مون لايت
دليل مواقع
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كلمات ترحيب وعبارات ترحيب /
صور للترحيب /
تحميل افلام
/
برنامج يفتح المواقع المحجوبه
برنامج تحويل الاغاني الى mp3 /
برنامج ساعة جميلة على سطح المكتب /
كيف تعرف ان جهازك مخترق /
طريقة
كسر البروكسي
برنامج لمنع فتح مواقع اِباحية /
كيف تصنع فايروس /
برنامج فوتوشوب العربي /
لتخطي الباسورد على جهاز الكمبيوتر
متجدد يوميا موقع عربي لتحميل مفاتيح كاسبر سكاي مجانا kaspersky key free arabic
تحميل الماسنجر 2009 , Windows Live Messenger 2009
/
تحميل ماسنجر 2009
برامج
2009 والتحميل مباشرة /
برنامج يفتح اكثر من ايميل بنفس الوقت /
تحميل كاسبر
2009 /
برنامج لتسريع مشاهدة الفيديو بموقع اليوتيوب
برنامج real draw لإنشاء التواقيع
/
شاهد منزلك من القمر , قوقل ايرث /
طريقة ازالة الباتشات / الباتش /
رسائل mms روعه..حزن ..وشوق
مسجات شوق وحنين /
مسجات الفراق /
ملف كامل لمسجات الجوال / رسائل
وسائط /
مسجات 2009
الموسوعه الشامله للمسجات (اسلاميه+حب وغرام+شوق ووله+وداع
وفراق+مدح+الاعياد+نكت+مقالب
مسجات مابين الحزن والفراق /
بلاحب بلا وجع قلب mms لراشد الماجد /
مسجات الصباح
مسجات حب /
مسجات شوق /
شرح نسخ الرسائل من ذاكرة الهاتف الى بطاقة الذاكرة او العكس ( بالصور )
اجمل رسائل حب /
مسجات تضحك , مسجات مضحكه /
رسائل حب /
مجموعة مسجات 2010
طريقة استرجاع الرسائل الإلكترونية /
مسجات جميله /
رسائل عتاب /
حب وحنان وغزل رسائل حب مسجات غرام رسائل للعشاق رسايل عتاب
رسائل حب واشتياق لأحلى عشاق /
رسايل وسائط سبيشل للعيد /
مسجات استهبال /
اجمل المسجات لعيد الحب /مسجات
فراق والله الفراق يعور القلب
طريقة سرقة الايميلات /
شرح بالصور : كيف تعرف من معطيك بلوك بالماسنجر /
توبيكات البوم راشد الماجد الجديد 2009 بلا حب , نور عيني
توبيكات متحركة جنان /
برنامج مسنجر بلس تحميل سريع /
تشغيل اكثر من ماسنجر 2009 الاصدار 14 /
نكات مزخرفه
صور بنت روعه للمسنجر /
توبيكات ملونه + صور شخصية للماسنجر /
توبيكات هبال وصرقعه /
طرق كيفية كشف آي بي عبر الماسنجر
توبيكات متنوعة /
توبيكات فلسطين , توبكات غزة , توبيك نصرة غزة /
سكربت يظهر المخفي في الماسنجر
توبيكات شعريه /
نكات ماسنجر روعه /
اظهار المخفي في ايميلك بدون برنامج ولاشي /
شرح طريقه معرفه الباسوورد على الماسنجر بالصور
توبيكات ملونة وصور ماسنجر ( توبيكات رمضانية ) /
اكثر من 100 نك ملون لماسنجر , توبيكات ملونه
توبيكات توبكات ملونة مع الصور /
ثيم للماسنجر (فيستا) /
مائة نك نيم للمسنجر /
تغير لون النيك نيم تبع الماسنجر
برنامج روعة لسرق الصور الشخصية في الماسنجر
احصل على حساب مجاني من msn /
عالم الماسنجر /
توبيكات NeW /
توبيكات ملونه ( جديده 2009 ) زخارف
للماسنجر /
صور للماسنجر /
ايقونات ماسنجر
صور رهيبة ومعبرة للماسنجر /
ادخل للماسنجر بدون برنامج Msm /
اجمل نكات للماسنجير /
عبارات متحركه للمسنجر /
توبيكات رومنسيه
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